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Suiton Update
Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:53 am by (Admin) Asuma
The Suiton Jutsu list has undergone several changes, please be sure to update your jutsu in your bio, and to replace jutsu that have been removed with jutsu of equivalent rank.

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 The teaching rules...

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Mvid

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PostSubject: The teaching rules...   Fri Mar 06, 2015 5:40 pm

...so why is it I can't teach any jutsu I know? I sort of understand not wanting people to "cheat" the Academy, but it doesn't make sense to me that I can pay for a jutsu, decide I want to share it, but can't becomes of an arbitrary OOC ruling.
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Fri Mar 06, 2015 5:49 pm

While I personally understand not being able to use certain ranks oneself based on rank (thus level) restrictions, I'm also curious as to why characters can't teach what they can perform, as there happens to be (and will likely always be) more genin and lower-level ninja than Jounin and above. It seems somewhat arbitrary and necessitates DM interference rather than inter-player relations for more mundane things.
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DM Sakumo



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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Fri Mar 06, 2015 6:11 pm

For the same reason you can't teach the theory behind a^2+b^2=c^2 beyond the actual formula. The difference between a practitioner and an expert is that one knows how to mold the ability to their methodology, which accounts for any type of IC discrepancies between how the teacher performs a technique and how the student performs the technique, preventing hiccups in the teaching process.

As a Shinobi learns more about the technique and utilizes it more often and in different situations, they can provide a more 'full' teaching experience that is realized here through the teaching restrictions.
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Fri Mar 06, 2015 6:29 pm

[Trial] DM Sakumo wrote:
For the same reason you can't teach the theory behind a^2+b^2=c^2 beyond the actual formula. The difference between a practitioner and an expert is that one knows how to mold the ability to their methodology, which accounts for any type of IC discrepancies between how the teacher performs a technique and how the student performs the technique, preventing hiccups in the teaching process.

As a Shinobi learns more about the technique and utilizes it more often and in different situations, they can provide a more 'full' teaching experience that is realized here through the teaching restrictions.

There is no mechanical difference between a technique used by someone who can teach it or not. While I understand your argument, it falls apart because it's not mechanically supported.

Also, if I am the one who invented a technique, I very much can in fact teach it to you, because I understand it fundamentally better than a technique I was taught. To use your example, even if Pythagoras was a genin, he still invented the theorum and understands it well enough to explain it to a student.

Honestly, this server disrespects how difficult jutsu are to perform to begin with (E and D-rank ninjutsu that are in-canon would be B to A-ranks come to mind) that the teaching restriction seems more like a punishment for not rushing up the rank ladder as soon as possible.
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Fri Mar 06, 2015 6:32 pm

Mechanics are an OOC function, not an IC Function. You asked for an IC reasoning. I cannot give you a reasoning as to why Shinobi are allowed to 'self-teach' or create Jutsu above the rank that they are capable of teaching [Which would create a paradox in which you are unable to 'teach' yourself the technique], or why some lower rank jutsu are not treated as higher ranks. Hopefully the balancing team will be able to address this.
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:17 pm

Well for those that actually watched the show and remember when Sasuke first did a fireball technique Kakashi was disbelieving of it saying it required to much chakra. So for that at least there are limits in the universe and you dont see naruto using a whole lot of jutsu other then rasengan and clones. You didn't see him going around teaching others how to do rasengan and the variants of it to others. These techniques weren't taught to pretty much anyone else and they then developed them further letting others do there own jutsu.
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:55 pm

[Trial] DM Sakumo wrote:
Mechanics are an OOC function, not an IC Function. You asked for an IC reasoning. I cannot give you a reasoning as to why Shinobi are allowed to 'self-teach' or create Jutsu above the rank that they are capable of teaching [Which would create a paradox in which you are unable to 'teach' yourself the technique], or why some lower rank jutsu are not treated as higher ranks. Hopefully the balancing team will be able to address this.

No, POOR mechanics are an OOC function. This mechanic is, in fact, an IC function by it's nature-it is stating an action that may or may not be taken. Good mechanics reinforce roleplay.

DM Deidara wrote:
Well for those that actually watched the show and remember when Sasuke first did a fireball technique Kakashi was disbelieving of it saying it required to much chakra. So for that at least there are limits in the universe and you dont see naruto using a whole lot of jutsu other then rasengan and clones. You didn't see him going around teaching others how to do rasengan and the variants of it to others. These techniques weren't taught to pretty much anyone else and they then developed them further letting others do there own jutsu.

Honestly? That basically doesn't matter here. A Genin can perform, without any other bonuses, an average of five to six Fireball Jutsu and it wouldn't even be a surprise. And really, what should be more surprising there is that he managed a Nature Transformation-that is much more difficult than basic chakra use.

It just seems backwards to me that every village has a scroll of every jutsu not invented by a PC ever, and can be accessed at any time by anyone who's not a Genin, and yet I can't teach someone my super special chakra punch. Or that same thing he's reading from a scroll right over there that I happen to know.
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Sat Mar 07, 2015 2:10 am

If you can self-teach a technique of a certain rank... I don't see why you can't teach others. This is currently an environment where, while I cannot teach a D-rank at Genin, the same person can teach themselves, alone, with no one's help, a -C- rank jutsu with all of the understanding to consistently use it. Arguing that point is moot at least, and it harms the overall inter-player element of the server. Mechanics should be as IC as possible to support the RP of the server as a whole.
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:00 am

I get what they are saying....If you can learn from a scroll (as people have done icly when a teacher doesnt have a jutsu they want/need) then you think a genin could teach them....

BUT

ICly it could be Genin are not allowed to teach above that rank as the Kage/Leaders of the village believe that they do not have enough experience to do so. Sculpting the minds of the next generation of shinobi is dangerous to put in the hands of a freshly graduated genin after all.

However....I would suggest that any -custom- technique can be taught by its creator regardless of rank. As they know it better than anyone else.

And/Or allow special passes to characters that allows them to teach higher ranks as a reward for solid RP as a genin.
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:50 am

Abyss wrote:

And/Or allow special passes to characters that allows them to teach higher ranks as a reward for solid RP as a genin.


Because this place needs more stuff for people to apply for. >_>



Regardless! I think I'm just gonna start disregarding the teaching rules when it comes to my customs. It's an arbitrary rule that makes no sense and custom jutsu are -my- creation to do with as -I- please.
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:58 am

Solknight wrote:
If you can self-teach a technique of a certain rank... I don't see why you can't teach others. This is currently an environment where, while I cannot teach a D-rank at Genin, the same person can teach themselves, alone, with no one's help, a -C- rank jutsu with all of the understanding to consistently use it. Arguing that point is moot at least, and it harms the overall inter-player element of the server. Mechanics should be as IC as possible to support the RP of the server as a whole.

I can't find the upvote button to push 1000 times.
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Mon Mar 09, 2015 12:46 pm


The Missing-Nin Rules wrote:

Rank Information: Mising Shinobi are always Open Perma. Because of this they gain power at a slightly different rate and way, by level instead of rank, Bingo Book Ranking replacing normal Ranking for 'Abilities/Bloodlines' bonuses and the like. (They Gains Levels via DM Events, and by Tokens. Able to buy 1 Level for 5 RP Tokens, to a Maximum of 3 Levels every one irl Week that passes. They gains bonus hp/cp and 'rank up' mods based on Bingo Book Rank. Further Information Seen Below.
Teaching Abilities: Any Jutsu they Know.

Something else I spotted upon looking the teaching rules over... so, village nin are restricted to teaching, but missing-nin can teach anything they know? Is this meant to imply that the teaching restricts are IC, not OOC, or just an oversight?
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Mon Mar 09, 2015 1:10 pm

Teaching from scrolls technically isn't a thing. However, sometimes us DMs cannot find the time to make NPCs to teach each and every lesson- thus, we take the easy route and stick to scrolls.

You guys do raise a good point here. The original idea behind teaching and learning was to promote the higher-ups to teach the people with a lower rank. However, this really is a lost concept when there's never any chuunin/jounin online in your village.
I also get that, RPly, there's no reason why I can't instruct someone in a technique that I already know.

We'll look into it and work on a change.
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Mon Mar 09, 2015 2:12 pm

My suggestion to that idea is that when a ninja of little experience attempts to teach a technique of his own rank, that it costs much more CP to learn it, and higher gates, like +2 gate levels. It took ages for Konohamaru to master Kage bunshin from Naruto, and I don't even want to imagine how long it took him to learn the Rasengan from him.

I still really don't want to see naruto and sasuke(Or Neji and Lee) copies around though. For the sake of balance, ranks should still be very limited to what jutsu ranks they can learn; however I see no problem in allowing ranks to learn a jutsu or two that are higher than the regular level of jutsu they can use.

However, I would like it so it takes -ages- for that genin to learn such a jutsu, because with the current way the learning system works, even adding more gates to this exception is still going to not be enough in exchange of how much power a genin will be getting from casting a B or A rank(I've seen people master these techniques in less than an hour with how the system currently works).

Just my couple cents on the matter.
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:50 pm

We're PCs. We ARE the Neji, the Naruto, the Rock lee. If you want, you can play the bit ninja in the background. But as a Player Character in an RPG, that isn't our role. Being able to only teach what you can learn? That's common fucking sense unless you get some powerset that turns you into an Iruka-grade teacher (though that's called the Academy Instructor job.)


Besides. This server treats ninjutsu FAR differently than the series (FUCKING NATURE TRANSFORMATION. ELEMENTAL CHAKRA?! THAT SHIT IS FUCKING HARD AND AMAZING TO MASTER.) and simplifies it so that we're not sitting there for days at a time to try and learn the ability to hit someone for 2d6 damage in a system where you have people who more or less eat that damage and giggle because it tickled. And even then! This system requires -absurd- writing to reward ratios -for- that 2d6. So if you want to take -more- time to learn things? Go ahead. But bear in mind that Jutsu learning, at present, is to compensate for the fact that it takes two peoples time into the matter. And it's a game. This isn't some 900% hardcore essay writing. This is, first and foremost, a gaming system. A very. . .Loose, patchwork Gaming system with a whole lot of space for improvement. But one all the same.


As it stands? The server still suffers from a very large issue of time spent to progression made. But that's something for another time.
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:35 am

So I'm doubleposting to revive this thread on the topic of the revised learning rules.


Simply put: Are you actively trying to drive people away from playing through the academy (Which is already an abysmal chore.) by stripping down the reward for it to what amounts to a slap in the face? And the artificial bloat of techniques you MUST know before you can progress ranks. Is that to force people to start picking up the awful standard list jutsu that all do the same thing except marginally different? (Here's looking at you, Taijutsu.).

I know this is gonna come off as combative. I don't really care. I'm just interested in the thought process behind changing the parts of the rules that -worked- (You are X. You can learn X.) not only making the rules MORE complex, but failing utterly at doing what people were asking for ('I wanna teach my customs that someone could legit just learn!' 'Okay. But it's harder for some retarded reason.') in the changes in the first place.


First the changes to perma that more or less state we want to kill you, the events that pose such as a very constant threat to the characters that you should be catering to (Those Jonin? who never play? Not important. Those Genin? Who make up the bulk of your playerbase? Cater to their powerlevel and encourage Jonin to step the fuck off and let newbies figure things out.), these changes to learning rules amidst a very general atmosphere on the server of 'You want us to fix it! But we're just gonna break it more' with a ruleset that's already bad has me worried.


Seriously. What's up?
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:23 am

I would like to echo KickerSkeleton's post above.

I like most of the changes to jutsu teaching/learning; especially the fact it takes more CP per roll for you to do it; however I can't say I'm very happy with the way the learning bonuses have been trimmed.

I like that there is now a mod requirement for you to learn a rank or type of jutsu. I always felt it was wrong that everyone can learn everything regardless of their skill(Except Fuuinjutsu).

It is good to see that scroll teaching is apparently also getting trimmed some, as I've felt with all of the scrolls being thrown left and right; the feeling of hardwork put into a character to learn a jutsu doesn't quite exist; now with such things being more moderated, it's good to see. However on the other hand, with the lack of PC teachers(Jounin), I also can understand how this might have been a bit of a doubled edged sword.

I have to say I admit that, if the staff plans to keep how things are now, that the gate system to learn jutsu should also get a revamp, as it was designed to be on par with the previous rank learning bonuses.

I can appreciate wanting things to be more realistic, but after yesterday's event, I am left pondering if the staff should not be taking more steps to getting more jounin level ninja in their villages and moderate the rate in which some of the events gain on difficulty, or at least grant viable ways for the lowbies to get back home. I also agree with how most of the high ranked are not as active, or make questionable choices which should carry out consequences(Such as demotions).
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:59 pm

We took awhile to discuss the new learning system, as well as taking a look at what you guys wanted us to do. We found that learning jutsu, as a whole, was just to easy and the learning bonuses were being thrown around left, right and center and it was becoming a problem. So, we first looked at what was being requested, the teaching. Now, to have a way for you ato teach your custom jutsu, we first had to come up with a way for a fair system as to how we wanted the ranks to be able to learn / teach that made sense with the power scale, which is where the Mod chart came from. After we had found the base line, we had to work into the mix the fact that if we are going to make it harder to learn, which it currently, with this system, is harder but not impossible, we had to lower the bonuses, and that is where the numbers came from.

Now it's daunting to look at, but we are still in the midst of trying to get all the numbers to work together, which is why this is still currently on trial and if the players (You guys) find that it's not working and it is completely fucked, to say politely, we will just turn around and rewrite them again. It is hard to write a system for learning jutsu that is fair, and everyone will be happy, but we try our best to do so. Which, is why we are doing things mostly on trial and getting opinions voiced, like the two above, is what we want to see. So, keep it coming. We're only here to -try- and make a system that you will all enjoy.

Sasori.
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:18 pm

Since I was the one that posed the original question, I think I should give a commentary to the new teaching rules. If the DMs responsible for the changes would like to answer or comment, that'd be appreciated.

Frankly? I'm confused as to why the wheel was reinvented.

The first thing I noticed, base, is that it's possible for even a fully specialized Academy Student to completely fail at learning a jutsu, though it's incredibly unlikely (requiring 30+ 1s in a row). This used to not be the case with instructor bonuses.

The idea of having a stat requirement to learn jutsu isn't... entirely bad. It seems to me the intent is to reward specialization instead of punish generalization. The easier route to accomplish that, I think, is to increase Gate totals, since it won't harm specialists significantly (requiring on average 2-5 more rolls) but would reward your Rock Lees for trying to spend a week straight learning to fireball someone.

The Rank Chart, likewise... honestly, my only problem is that this, coupled with the change for stat requirements, means people are going to stick to their specialty to try and complete the tree. Some of the tree straight up is not worth it. For example, the Taijutsu Swift Kick is objectively worse than Chakra Focused Punch-piercing 1 DR is equivalent to +1 damage vs. targets with DR, but +1d4 damage outpaces it or, at minimum, equals it. Of course nothing stacks up to Leaf Whirlwind for consistency but because I refuse to fight like this, I tend not to use it. Still, on a chakra/action investment to damage output level, Leaf Whirlwind is the only one worth knowing. Having the rest of the list is a waste of time, and literally having to learn it in order to progress upward feels like a chore. I would suggest giving this idea the ax if you're going to keep the stat requirements on jutsu.

Minor bout of autism, but it makes no sense at all that a bonus towards one jutsu category applies to any, say, Genjutsu I use, but doesn't make it easier to learn. Because apparently being a Genjutsu prodigy doesn't keep you from struggling just as hard as everybody else!

The deflation of bonuses without changing the Gate DCs is an interesting choice, but I wonder why it was made. As an example, before, a Genin with a +14 to their specialty's stat modifier would have an average of 42 CP, and learning a C-rank technique would be 3 CP at 1d20+19-20, with occasional 5 to 10 point spikes from high rolls. On average rolls this genin succeeds after spending 35 CP and making 11 attempts. With this new system, the Genin has the same DCs, but lower bonuses and higher costs. Said Genin now rolls at 1d20+16-17 at 5 CP per, and on average... drains his CP pool and fails after 8 rolls. This change makes it so that luck is now seriously necessary to pass through the gates unless players invest in large amounts of CP cost reduction to mitigate the increasing costs and give themselves more rolls to attempt.

The overall appearance of these rules is that the DM team wants to limit jutsu access to make them feel important and useful. But, frankly, your system is NOT designed to do that. Even as early as being a Genin-character generation for most-basic actions (throwing tools, basic tai/kenjutsu, etc.) is QUICKLY outpaced by people with CP expenditure actions. That's fine-resources out to effects in makes for an interesting mechanic to play with. Making them require effort, but not out of grasp for that effort and time input, was perfectly acceptable.

Honestly, considering the discussion that was going before these changes came up, they feel almost maliciously targeted.

(Admin) Sasori wrote:
Now it's daunting to look at, but we are still in the midst of trying to get all the numbers to work together, which is why this is still currently on trial and if the players (You guys) find that it's not working and it is completely fucked, to say politely, we will just turn around and rewrite them again. It is hard to write a system for learning jutsu that is fair, and everyone will be happy, but we try our best to do so. Which, is why we are doing things mostly on trial and getting opinions voiced, like the two above, is what we want to see. So, keep it coming. We're only here to -try- and make a system that you will all enjoy.

The only problems that I'd heard people speak about were the strangely limiting teaching rules, and the suspension of disbelief that came from every jutsu ever being written down and taught to anyone. The latter is solved by having the former solved-when anyone can teach anyone anything they know, learning a jutsu becomes more of a social experience. "Hey, I heard you knew/saw you performed Fuck You Up no Jutsu! Can you teach me?" as opposed to "Bossman, can I read Fuck You Up no Jutsu over your shoulder?" One starts a dialogue amongst peers, and frankly, considering there are 3-4 chuunin and -1- active jounin PCs, that's a better way to handle teaching than the changes I see here.

There ARE good ideas in these teaching rules, but there's also some bad ones, and some strange ones.
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:57 pm

Learning jutsu is not suppose to be a "Hey, let's learn" bam, 10 minutes later, Learnt it, type deal. It is suppose to take the time and dedication of yourself and your teacher, if you have one, for it to be rewarding. The gates were lowered, and so were the bonuses with the CP Costs upped. As well as the mod requirements. Now, the mod requirements was a last minute thing, that I came up with personally, and that the rest of the team seemed to like. I did have a work around for it, being that if you do not have the mod Required to LEARN (Not teach) that the gates would be 1 rank higher, but the CP Cost remains the same as the jutsu rank. I was als informed that there was no rule about failing a jutsu lesson, which I have added a note to the bottom of the page so that is clarified.
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:58 pm

my main issue is that my learning bonus +6 academy +10 for mod just went to +2...

so now I have 1d20+12 instead of 1d20 +26. And now instead of a nat 20 giving +10 as a major break through we get +2.

Without the gates really changing....Now I guess that isnt so bad...Apart from it definitely once again widens the gap between newer and older players. They have tons of jutsu and stats and maxed bloodlines and items and abilities. Where new players will struggle with basic jutsu.

Let me provide an example for that

Academy Student Joe
Con mod: +2
Wis Mod: +4

CP = 10lvl + 10base + 5 rank + 2 con + 4 wis... 31 total.

Now they have a +1 to learning rolls So

1d20+1. If we use the law of average and assume for 15 per roll. then it is still going to take them the fair majority of their CP pool to learn a single E Rank jutsu....

And then if they go through all of this for all 8 academy jutsu they end up with +2 to learning rolls.

ANd it doesnt get much better for higher rank characters because they have to learn X number of E, D, C, etc rank jutsu just to reach the next tier. Even if the jutsu doesnt ICly make sense for them to learn. Or is something they would never use.
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:38 pm

We don't want Jutsu to be easy to learn, we want them to be sort of hard, but not impossible. As I said, I have a few work arounds from what you guys are suggesting.

1a) Drop the gates another 25 per each gate.
1b) Add / Increase bonuses
2) Add learning without mod with being 1 gate higher, CP Still the same
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:45 pm

A large majority of the jutsu list isn't worth an increase in difficulty to learning, bluntly. See: The entire Taijutsu list below C-rank, the Kenjutsu list, the Fire Release list and those are just the ones I'm familiar with.

If you want to make them harder to learn, make there be more of a reward than "Oh, yay, now I can fire a slightly different color of fireball."
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:01 pm

We are working on rewriting the jutsu lists, I've got Fuuton and Katon in the works. One of the other DM's, as far as I am aware, is working on Taijutsu and Kenjutsu.
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:30 pm

So what I'm seeing is punishments for the lower level characters (Again, the majority of the playerbase.) who haven't invested 9001 tokens into their character. All because 'We don't want Jutsu to be easy to learn'.

Lets arbitrarily limit the combat system (The ONLY CONCRETE SYSTEM IN THE MOD) for the sake of making the current entire lack of progression seem like it's actually progressing! That'll fix everything!

Well. I know what I'm not doing anymore. Enjoy yourself, guys. Because this is a sign for me to abandon ship.
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