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 The teaching rules...

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PostSubject: The teaching rules...   Fri Mar 06, 2015 5:40 pm

First topic message reminder :

...so why is it I can't teach any jutsu I know? I sort of understand not wanting people to "cheat" the Academy, but it doesn't make sense to me that I can pay for a jutsu, decide I want to share it, but can't becomes of an arbitrary OOC ruling.
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:40 pm

I see a lot of people taking shots at the system, which instead of doing so, I would rather you have suggestions as to how to change it for the better. We worked on it for a little, not to punish the lower characters, but to make it so learning higher rank jutsu is suppose to be a focus. We're not also focusing on allowing those with higher tokens to get ahead, as it is quite cheap to get to a 14 mod. Most Genin start with a 12 mod, allowing them to learn C rank jutsu off the bat. Once you hit Advanced Genin, you should have the tokens to learn B Rank.

We're not trying to punish, we're trying to have determination as well as commitment be shown via what the character can learn and have them show their power with such. If it comes across as us punishing the lower levels, that was not intended. Again, this is a trial and instead of picking at the system and pointing fingers or even quitting, give us a fix. Write something to show how you think it should be. We are all volunteers ourselves, so if you think you have a better idea as to how the system should be, be my guest and show us. But remember that we are only trying to make a better place to roleplay, and voicing your opinion is what we want to see. But we would rather see a fix that you think should be placed, instead of saying "Don't like it, this is shit, get rid of it"
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:15 pm

(Admin) Sasori wrote:
I see a lot of people taking shots at the system, which instead of doing so, I would rather you have suggestions as to how to change it for the better. We worked on it for a little, not to punish the lower characters, but to make it so learning higher rank jutsu is suppose to be a focus.

In my last post I made a couple of suggestions regarding this, but I'll put a few more here.

(Admin) Sasori wrote:
We're not also focusing on allowing those with higher tokens to get ahead, as it is quite cheap to get to a 14 mod. Most Genin start with a 12 mod, allowing them to learn C rank jutsu off the bat.

Presuming you start with a base 18 in a stat (it's possible but requires a bit of twinking to get a base 20 in DEX, STR or CON), an Academy graduate can get up to base 22-which comes out to an 11 mod. At that point, it costs 70 tokens to buy from Base 22 to Base 26 (+14 mod).

Just as an aside, since I started playing here, I've seen:
-the free 100 token gift (not offered all the time!)
-The 15 tokens from a february contest opening (not offered all the time!)
-The 50 free tokens that you start with for creating a new character.
-Approximately 45 tokens from RP and events.

It may be easier for someone who can play for multiple hours daily to buy a 14 mod, but let me tell you: I work night shift four days a week and also have hobbies that don't involve NWN, and I'm certainly suffering for it as far as token reserves go. It's not "quite cheap" to get a 14 mod if you haven't been playing here for a long time already, or didn't get a character transferred over.

But that's not really related! I just wanted to speak up about that when I saw it.

(Admin) Sasori wrote:
Once you hit Advanced Genin, you should have the tokens to learn B Rank.

Not guaranteed to ever happen-Advanced Genin is a selective application process. In fact, it's safe to assume that a majority of players will never see this as an option.

(Admin) Sasori wrote:
We're not trying to punish, we're trying to have determination as well as commitment be shown via what the character can learn and have them show their power with such. If it comes across as us punishing the lower levels, that was not intended.

As I mentioned before, the increased gates (overall success likelihood going down) with the addition of stat limitations on learning jutsu means that you are punishing people: anyone who doesn't want to dedicate themselves entirely into one stat's focus. It's not feasible for me to try to learn -any- Ninjutsu on Kan until I drop another 30 tokens in to reach an arbitrary stat threshold now. You can say he's not good enough-but were I allowed to attempt rolls with my 8 mod, than my determination, skill, luck, and fuck-huge CP pool damn well could get me success. But now? I may as well just focus on punching forever.

(Admin) Sasori wrote:
Again, this is a trial and instead of picking at the system and pointing fingers or even quitting, give us a fix. Write something to show how you think it should be. We are all volunteers ourselves, so if you think you have a better idea as to how the system should be, be my guest and show us. But remember that we are only trying to make a better place to roleplay, and voicing your opinion is what we want to see. But we would rather see a fix that you think should be placed, instead of saying "Don't like it, this is shit, get rid of it"

I'm not sure if you intended, but this came off as a bit condescending to me. But moving on from that...

A couple of suggested fixes/tweaks:

-Revert to the older bonuses to learn rolls, but increase Gate DCs and CP per attempt
-Passing a gate becomes a "checkpoint" and if you fail to learn, you can come back later at the midway point and try again.
-Threshold DCs before your roll actually adds into the Gate progress.
-Scaling bonuses to rolls based on the rank of your instructor/the detail of your jutsu scroll
-Group training bonuses and/or rerolls, since people are less likely to make the mistake Shinobi Jim just did.

This is just off of the top of my head.

The big thing I'm seeing is that... well, bluntly, jutsu learning was seen as a chore. You did it so you had options when fighting happened. This change didn't make jutsu learning any more fun or engaging, it just made it take significantly more time. There's going to be backlash when you make people's chores take longer.
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:02 pm

Mvid wrote:

-Passing a gate becomes a "checkpoint" and if you fail to learn, you can come back later at the midway point and try again.
-Scaling bonuses to rolls based on the rank of your instructor/the detail of your jutsu scroll
-Group training bonuses and/or rerolls, since people are less likely to make the mistake Shinobi Jim just did.

The first point, there is a note at the bottom of the page that allows you to do just this, Mvid. You can end anytime you wish, come back an hour later, and continue from where you left off. We are trying to limit learning bonuses, as gaining a +20 to learning rolls was just getting to the point where a lot of people could auto learn, but I understand what you are saying. We can make a bonus for training in larger groups, gaining an additional +1 to rolls for every other person learning in the same area as you are as a "Moral" booster. Also, like I said, we can have the learning without the required mod just makes the gates higher, since it is "Learning outside your focus" in a way.
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:10 am

M suggestion if the goal is to make the higher ranks difficult is this....

Either a: Lower the gate substantially on the E,C,D ranks and leave the thers

Oooooor my personal preference

I would go back to the old system and just say all learning bonuses are halved at higher ranks. or even cap them for the higher ranks.

Cap at like +15 for C ranks, +10 for B ranks, +5 for A ranks, + 0 for S ranks
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:25 pm

(Admin) Sasori wrote:

The first point, there is a note at the bottom of the page that allows you to do just this, Mvid. You can end anytime you wish, come back an hour later, and continue from where you left off. We are trying to limit learning bonuses, as gaining a +20 to learning rolls was just getting to the point where a lot of people could auto learn, but I understand what you are saying.

So... you're making jutsu lessons take up more of my time, without changing the overall failure chance... why exactly? Because if there is no failure consequence other than "wait until you have chakra and finish it" then you are literally just wasting my time in an attempt to artificially make the thing seem more difficult.
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:15 am

Ok. . . so Kotoyo had a +36-39 learning bonus when learning Kenjutsu without a Kichida teaching. That was rediculous. I honestly will agree that the changes in the bonuses was a good idea, maybe not to such a low extent, but still, +15/+20 to learning something means that I could learn an A rank in. . . I think the record was 10 minutes. The learning system was just a joke at that point. You could learn those 5 jutsu easily. Add that into the -2 cp cost for all Kenjutsu, and it meant nothing to learn anything. I could fight a horde of bandits and still have the cp to learn another jutsu at that point.


Now, I think the academy should be increased to actually get people to want to start from there. The teaching maybe to a +2, the learning to a +3 instead of the current simply to give that incentive to do it. It does mean, however, that the person starting in the academy needs an actual instructor. I say that maybe an addition of teaching bonus based on rank should be included in on this. For example: A Jounin would be able to explain -in detail- exactly how to perform a jutsu because of their experience. As an instructor, a bonus of let's say +4 to teaching would greatly assist that student. A Chunin would not have the same degree of this teaching, so giving them the +3 would be appropriate. A Special Jounin is talented in one particular field. So they would sacrifice the ability to teach the others as effectively as another, let's say for this they would get a +4 in their field but lose their +3 and drop to a +2.

There's also the idea that your mod provides a teaching bonus because of your proficiency in that particular field. A 20+ mod to wisdom would mean that when teaching you give a +4, 15-19 a +3, 10-15 would give a +2. Instructors would inherently give a +1 extra to these rolls in all fields because they are supposed to be there to instruct the students. It's their job, what they are there for. I honestly like this one better, basing it all off of your Mod. If you don't like that, dropping it by one point doesn't seem to unfair. You spent tokens/time/effort and you got know your shit, you should be able to explain it better to others. (I'd like to point out that if you have no experience in a field, you should not be able to teach it as effectively. Yes, the student would have access, but if you don't know something on the same level as that jutsu, then you wouldn't have the most appropriate knowledge of this. I.E. Kotoyo can't teach a Genjutsu as effectively as he could teach a Kenjutsu. Elementally, your elemental ninjutsu would be different. Ninjutsu is the same, however, if Kotoyo was to teach a Doton user a Doton technique, he would not be able to give the full bonus to learning because he is a Fuuton/Medical ninja. Therefore, his bonus to teaching would drop by. . . let's say 2 (min of base learning) for this. He doesn't hinder the student, but he can't provide all the help they need to understand. If this makes sense.)


It is not easy to get Tokens, most events occur in the early mornings/late nights and that means that there are fewer opportunities for players to be able to get involved in these missions. Timezones are a bitch, and I don't mean to fire shots, but I've seen relatively few DMs up top recently. It kills the possibility for players to be able to grab these tokens to upgrade their stats and buy their abilities. That's where I'll leave that.

The idea that your mod determines where you can learn . . . I like it and I don't.


Academy Student) E Rank - 0 MOD, D Rank - 5 MOD
Genin) E Rank - 0 MOD, D Rank - 5 MOD, C Rank - 10 MOD
Advanced Genin) E Rank - 0 MOD, D Rank - 4 MOD, C Rank - 9 MOD, B Rank - 14 MOD
Chuunin) E Rank - 0 MOD, D Rank - 3 MOD, C Rank - 8 MOD, B Rank - 13 MOD, A Rank - 18 MOD
Advanced Chuunin) E Rank - 0 MOD, D Rank - 2 MOD, C Rank - 7 MOD, B Rank - 12 MOD, A Rank - 17 MOD
Special Jounin) E Rank - 0 MOD, D Rank - 1 MOD, C Rank - 6 MOD, B Rank - 11 MOD, A Rank - 16 MOD, S Rank - 21 MOD
Jounin) E / D Rank - 0 MOD, C Rank - 5 MOD, B Rank - 10 MOD, A Rank - 15 MOD, S Rank - 20 MOD


To me, it feels appropriate. If you have a 5 mod in int, you aren't learning a B-rank Genjutsu. You are -not- smart enough for that. A D-rank would appropriately seem to be your limitations in the field. You sure as hell shouldn't be learning an S-rank with a 5 mod in int. . nor should you be able to tell what Genjutsu's are if you aren't A: using it, or B: getting hit by it. Of course. . . unless the idiot decides to yell out the Genjutsu. . . and at that point they aren't smart enough to be using it. (That's me taking a shot at someone, IG shit that bugs me list A). MOVING ON!

E Rank) None Required
D Rank) 3x E Rank
C Rank) 3x E Rank, 3x D Rank
B Rank) 3x E Rank, 4x D Rank, 3x C Rank
A Rank) 3x E Rank, 5x D Rank, 4x C rank, 3x B Rank
S Rank) 3x E Rank, 6x D Rank, 5x C Rank, 4x B Rank, 3x A Rank


^ I like this, but there are not more than 3 C-ranks you can learn in Kenjutsu. And one of those requires the Raiton element. That means -NO ONE- can learn a B-S rank Kenjutsu. . . cause there are only 3 to learn (This also applies to most of the E-ranks. . . there's like 2 in every field and that's it). So. . . . there need to be exceptions to this to a degree. It does make perfect sense. If you know. . . 0 D-ranks in a field, how the hell are you jumping to the more advanced stuff? I understand the viability argument. Some of these jutsu are just worthless in comparison to others of their class. Taijutsu is a wonderful example. In Kenjutsu, you never use hardened steel after you learn it in most cases. The same with preparing stance (unless you were trained by Suzumi, who teaches you how to wreck shit by starting with that jutsu).

Anyways, that's my two cents in on the issues at hand. I threw in my suggestions, I threw in my concerns, yada yada. It took me a long ass time to write this, so if something was already addressed at some point, just let me know and point it out to me. Thanks for reading this essay here!

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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:22 am

^ This is a progressive thinking.

This had thoughts of what is liked and what is not and ontop of that suggestions... very well writeen

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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:38 am

Okay doing this from my phone so I'll try and keep it together but promise nothing

Yeah the pluses to learning before was a joke before rolling I had +54 I believe if I'm doing my math right to kenjutsu making rolls almost obselete as my pluses alone was almost the equivalent of 2 nat 20s.

The pluses from who you are learning from sounds like a good idea but as before the more pluses given the more it takes away from rolls as rolls are supposed to be important. So well it's a good idea no guarnentees on it being implemented.

The pluses to teaching based on mod is another good idea which also pushes towards that dice don't matter pluses to learning do which I don't like but I like this idea at the same time.

The amount of jutsu required is universal mcninja =P I thought the same thing when I saw it. But no it's universal so you -could- have three e rank genjutsu and could then learn 6 d rank ninjutsu and then learn 5 c rank genjutsu etc
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:07 am

See. . . that universal makes less sense to me then.

So let's say I (ICly) know 3 D-rank kenjutsu, but I want to learn a C-rank Genjutsu and have never had -ANY- training in genjutsu before hand, then learning it should (RPly) be more difficult for that person. The rank of the Jutsu shouldn't matter in this case, what should matter is the experience in that particular tree. If you have no prior knowledge, you should be limited in what you can learn. Just how Shadowheart used to teach us when we were Suzumi's students. Well at least Kotoyo and her students from previous servers. It adds that element of accomplishment when you finally get that jutsu that you want. You trained long and hard, you actually did something to learn. I like that thought, that's how Kotoyo does things. To learn Accupuncture, I had him -for a solid two weeks- read a book about the art before actually getting Sigka to get Kotoyo a scroll that explained the entire jutsu. The medical ninja taught by Kotoyo receive a "Medical book" that is his notes on the medical jutsu's. It's not an item for people, simply a tool of RP so that they actually have their characters STUDY like an actual medical student. You aren't suddenly a doctor because a guy taught you how to open someone up in five minutes. Digressing. . .

Now, if the dice system was different, I would say that your mod wouldn't matter as much, but unfortunately, you can roll a nat 1 30 times in a row based on statistics. Now, that's highly unlikely, but not impossible. There's a bonus to your mod already if you a learning a jutsu, based on your understanding of that field (your mod). So. . . if you had been training in ninjutsu most of your ninja career (wisdom mod at a 18+) it would be highly unlikely for you to just absolutely have no idea what you are doing when teaching ninjutsu, since you get that bonus to learning the jutsu. I'm not suggesting higher learning roll bonuses here, I'm suggesting a form of teaching rolls. IE: Kotoyo could teach ninjutsu much more effectively than he could teach genjutsu/(ironically)kenjutsu. His wisdom mod is much higher, he's spent -MUCH- more time devoting himself to his ninjutsu. ICly, teaching it would be easier for him, and learning from him would be much more enlightening for his students. (I'm trying to fight the case to have something like this implemented for the players. It's a fair trade for learning a jutsu. It still takes time, effort, and the possibility to fail is lowered because you actively sought out someone that is versed in that field, but not eliminated. The bonus can be chosen to be given as well, if the sensei has decided to let the student go through a learning period without assistance like what Master Jiraya did with Naruto during the Rasengan training.)

If anything, we're looking at even higher player involvements with each other. Which is something I want to see. It's interactions between players, or at least an incentive they didn't have before. "Oh, I hear (This mofo) is good at Ninjutsu, I really want to learn ninjutsu, so maybe they can teach me." (For that train of thought, they are rewarded with both RP and a bonus to learning Fuck Shit Up no Jutsu. - in respect for my Shindou boys)

Instead, it doesn't matter who you learn from. . . they give you no bonuses, so there's no reason to pester someone into teaching you. (Like the Master Jiraya and Naruto relationship. Or. . . like how I have to do to Sigka/ShadowHeart. . .)

There's a high possibility that I read Deidara's response wrong the first time and am now looking it over again to see that, but I'm too lazy/tired to fix this. So I'm just reiterating my point with all this. Just me trying to demonstrate how effective this might be. Anyways, questions/comments/concerns, if you can't post them here, you can PM me guys. Again, thanks for Reading!



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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:26 am

To me, the learning system now is just more of a chore.

You've managed to make it incredibly unlikely to learn high-threshold jutsu in one sitting without a lot of luck, and that in and of itself is fine.

However, there is no failure state to learning. If you fail to learn the technique in one sitting, you wait an hour or so (or however long it takes someone to use a CP-restoring technique on you) and continue, exactly where you left off, with a new guarantee of success after the wait. This arbitrary extension of time-OOC time, mind, not IC time-feels more like an OOC punishment of sorts. It also fails at your intended goal-Jutsu do not seem more impactful or difficult to learn, because the only difficulty is in random chance and they are no stronger. It just takes more time, which gives the illusion that more effort was spent in learning when really it was just 3-4 more dice rolls after an hour-long nap.

Really, most of my complaint comes down to this. If you REALLY want jutsu learning to be difficult, you need to introduce a failure state of some kind. Having a chance of not succeeding will in fact make learning more difficult without (necessarily) being taxing on time. For examples I put forward the idea of a Threshold DC for your roll to apply to your Gates, and having the Gates mark as waypoints you have to cross, which reset if you fail to learn.

I'd come up with more suggestions, but it's 1:30 in the morning and my brain doesn't want to do mechanics anymore.
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:38 am

We could go back to the DC system introduced on the original Naruto server. Or have rolling under a 10 5 is considered a fail etc I dunno, I need to sleep myself.
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:34 am

(Admin) Sasori wrote:
We could go back to the DC system introduced on the original Naruto server,

No please no, the gate system is good. I just think that these changes should have come later, after fixing the issue of villages not having enough PCs qualified to teach unless they use the scrolls. I am totally fine with the idea you should spend roleplaying your ass out for your entire day (or more) to learn a B or A rank.


The academy students however, they will need a way to be appealing again. I would suggest giving the a flat +4 or +5.
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:05 pm

Academy students mods are treated one higher for determining what they can learn? Cause they've had private lessons and tutors?
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:53 pm

DasDwarf wrote:
Academy students mods are treated one higher for determining what they can learn? Cause they've had private lessons and tutors?

I like this. This is good. We should do this.

Xeneize wrote:
I am totally fine with the idea you should spend roleplaying your ass out for your entire day (or more) to learn a B or A rank.

I do not like this. The actual learning of techniques goes like this:

-type out trying
-hit your learn stat macro
-do math to see if you can continue

There is no other action you can perform. It's repetitive grinding, which is mechanically uninteresting to play. I could just as easily roleplay learning for hours without it.

Or actually roleplay things that aren't learning, because I don't have more than 4 hours a day most days I can play and would prefer not to be stuck doing chores for most of them.
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:15 pm

You can do what some people do by typing a single huge very detailed emote and roll a 20d20 and do the combined math of all the cp spent in said 20 attempts in one.
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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:19 pm

It's all rather. . . boring, and I understand why. It's on the fault of us who do teach others, we don't actually interact that often. I do it with the medical shinobi/weapon users that Kotoyo teaches, but that's because I know what I should be detailing. We can work it out in different ways, new manners of teaching, etc. I'll do what I can to make the learning process actually enjoyable for you guys.


I don't think the grinding should be boring. .. for kenjutsu I'm going to start having the students actually attack me with the justu until it seems right. A spar of sorts if you manage to actually hit, I'd like to add whatever my roll was to their learning. This probably has to be agreed on by the DM team, which I'll send in a formal request if you guys vote on and think the idea could work or if not, just tell me the idea isn't what you guys are wanting mechanically.

Taijutsu I was thinking we have fun with a workout session of some kind before the actual learning of the jutsu. You know, for a move that requires a kick we go do a run through lightning country, make it interesting. RP out the interactions of the players with animals like how I did with Kotoyo's training of his B-rank "The Way of the Hunter."

This also brings me to another kind of issue. The players feel that there has to be a DM present to allow them to do anything. Due to possible DM interactions in the past/currently that end up being negative for the player. Whether it's because a DM just decides that the player can't RP a certain way, or in the case that a player HAS TO RP in a completely different way because of 'reasons.' So. . . giving the players a bit more leeway, rewarding players for good RP, etc might be a good idea for this. OK back on topic. The idea of training sessions.

I still want to make this more fun, I'd like to do things without the need of a DM to babysit us. I'm open to suggestions here, 'cause I'm just throwing ideas at a dart board. Also. . . I would prefer not to hear out of these ideas, "No, that's not going to happen," since I'm really trying to help here. I'd like to read what you guys think, maybe see some critiques as well. You know, the back and forth of a good team. I don't really want to see this server just die out because of small mistakes, I've spent a good amount of time here and enjoy rping with most of you guys.

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PostSubject: Re: The teaching rules...   Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:50 pm

I had the thought that people who actually make it through the academy could be put at Advanced Genin rather than Genin if only for the fact they were willing to stick it out. But that is for the dms to decide.

As to the learning thing? I don't know....I liked the old bonuses, just with adding caps based on the rank of the jutsu you were trying to learn.

Basically....Awesome you got a +54 to learning? Against E, D ranks you sure do.

Learning Cap Per Rank
E: No cap
D: No Cap
C: +20 to learning
B: +15 to learning
A: +10 to learning
S: +5 to learning.

And that to learn any jutsu you must have 1-2 of the previous ranks of that element.

You want a C rank Raiton? Sure thing. But you need at least 1-2 D rank raiton and 1-2 E ranks.

That way you have to progress in order through the trees as it were. Otherwise a person could have a couple A rank taijutsu and suddenly pick up an S rank Genjutus or Suiton tech.

The other issue you would fall into with the requirements is this...You either have to be multi-stat so that you can learn a little of everything or wait to rank up to get more elements....And that isnt taking into consideration a clan like the Daitan that only ever get earth.
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